Getty Image
“We’re a bit ahead of schedule today,” is exactly what a film/movie/entertainment/whatever journalist like myself wants to hear when checking into a press junket. Usually, a 20-minute interview can be an hour-long affair, most of the time spent waiting in a Zoom breakout room. Not the fault of anyone, specifically, really, just a lot of moving parts in different places across the country and sometimes the globe.
“David’s flying through these, his answers are a bit short.” Now, that’s virtually the opposite of what you want to hear, as it suggests the subject of the interview is perhaps disgruntled, preoccupied, their mind elsewhere as they itch to get out of the chair and away from the bright lights and monitors and video chats.
Luckily, what I found upon meeting David Ayer was not a man being short or curt with his interviewers, but a man who knows what he wants to say and how he wants to say it.
It wasn’t easy for Ayer to reach this point, though, as — despite the calm and accepting demeanor that I ultimately found him in — he tells us he’s still paying for the “injustice” he was served at the hands of DC and Warner Bros. when he made the 2016 film Suicide Squad.
Ayer was put through the wringer and used as a shield, battered and bloodied by wave after wave of criticism that should’ve been directed at the studio but fell into the lap of himself and other filmmakers.
He’s come through the other side, though, and is now so sure of what he wants to say, he’s got no problem doing so, whether that be on Twitter, with the studios, or during this interview.
A transcription of the conversation that has been edited and condensed for clarity can be found below.
The Beekeeper and the unique talents of Jason Statham
Eric Italiano, BroBible:
First of all, awesome sweater. That’s that’s just first things first. I find that most of your leads are men who have just been ground down by the harsh realities of the world and are desperately trying to reach the light. Men who straddle darkness. What is it about this arc that appeals to you so much and why do you think it’s so cinematic?
David Ayer:
You know people that go out in the world and, whether it’s law enforcement or military, you know people that deal with violence or people that deal with kind of the harsher realities. I don’t know if you can do that work without it affecting you and there’s a nobility in somebody that exposes themselves to society’s antibodies, to bad things on our behalf. I just think that there’s a built-in drama there to explore.
BroBible:
We all know the physical tools Jason Statham has but what about his work as a performer do you think adds these kinds of parts?
Ayer:
That’s the thing: Jason is a martial artist, he’s an athlete, he’s a fighter. He is someone who does his own stunt work, and bringing all that to the table was interesting for me. A lot of times when you shoot these action sequences, you’re trying to cut around the photo double, you’re trying to cut around a stunt double. It’s almost like you’re shooting the scene twice. And with Jason, it was really about just finding the best storytelling shots within the choreography and that’s a real gift. He spoiled me in that regard and then you add his iconic nature as a stunt performer, as a fighter, as an actor. He has an encyclopedic knowledge of cinematic history and action history. He can literally tell you every punch ever thrown in a movie – it’s just unbelievable. I always bring my A-game to set, and I learned from Jason that there’s actually an A+ game when it comes to action.
BroBible:
That’s how he’s done it for so long, man. You don’t stay that good for that long if you’re not a serious man. You said that he does his own stunts. I know he does his own fight stunts, but did he do his own *bee* stunts?
Ayer:
The bees were real. The bees were not CG. And he actually went with a beekeeper and he learned the entire process. He learned how to manage the hive and pull the comb out and harvest honey. It was interesting because we’re so used to seeing him as being the stoic, strong, aggressive person and here he is in this very grounded, natural, kind of zen space and that was important to me because I wanted to show him in a more humanistic and accessible way.
BroBible:
Is the role conceived with him in mind? I’m sure once you land Statham an entire world of options is now at your doorstep. And then do you add more s— because you’re like, ‘Hell yeah, I’ve got Jason now!’
Ayer:
Kurt Wimmer wrote the script and he’s friends with Jason. They worked on Adam Clay together (the character) together and then I got the script. I’m like, “Amazing mythology? Check. Amazing characters? Check. An amazing storyline that just keeps growing and getting better? Check.” So I have to do this movie. I want to work with Jason and then for me as a director, it really came down to how do I take this paper document and turn it into moving pictures, and do it on time, and on budget, and with Jason. It’s always a challenge to make any movie but in this case, I had a great script to work from and just an amazing actor who taught me so much about action and filmmaking. I’m always learning.
BroBible:
Did he push you in ways that you had never been pushed before as a filmmaker and if so, how?
Ayer:
I think especially with the action because he’s doing it himself. You know, he’s the money, he’s the face. It’s his chin in the ring, he’s gonna take the hits if it’s bad, so he’s all about getting to the best place possible. We have Jeremy Marinas, who he’s worked with before and who I love working with, from the 8711 School of Stunts and those guys are at the cutting edge.
BroBible:
Are those the JOHN WICK guys?
Ayer:
Yeah, so he’s Chad [Stahelski’s] protege and just a really gifted fight choreographer. Je also swung cameras for me for the second unit. It’s a long process. There’s a lot of choreography. There are rehearsals. You video the rehearsals, you cut the video together, and you experiment with camera angles. It’s an intricate process to get to where things are on the screen.
BroBible:
What are some of your all-time favorite revenge flicks and did you try to work into any homages to those films in yours?
Ayer:
Oh, wow. You know, I always like Taken, Taken is a great movie.
BroBible:
I just rewatched that a month or so ago. It holds up.
Ayer:
It holds up and it’s all about detail. It’s all about you know creating a world. And that’s kind of what I wanted to bring to Beekeeper was making sure that it was a little more than just: ‘Something happened, hero activates, beats up bad guys.’ I wanted a message. I wanted an emotional heart, and having the slow boil opening with Felicia Rachad and having her taken advantage. She’s clearly a good person and a good soul taking advantage by some very bad people. And then connecting Jason to that in him seeing the result of it. It was a great way to elevate the action genre
BroBible:
Something that you did in this film that I thought was effective as hell — I found the background callers to be the most evil people in the whole movie. They made my skin crawl with their vapes and their outfits. They made my skin crawl more than anybody else.
Ayer:
It was definitely a nod towards crypto bro culture.
BroBible:
Good, they deserve it. If you had to pick one of your film characters to save your ass, would Beekeeper be number one? And if not, which one would be?
Ayer:
It would be Beekeeper. That’s that’s an easy one. It doesn’t matter where he has to get into, what he faces, who he has to defeat — he’s gonna figure it out and he’s gonna look pretty good doing it.
Fury, the bond between the stars, and the “Best job I ever had” scene
BroBible:
David, I want to now move on to one of my favorite films of all time, FURY.
Ayer:
Oh, right on.
BroBible: Truly one of my favorites. I think it’s one of the best post-SAVING PRIVATE RYAN war films we have, which is a huge mountain to climb. I think your film comes as close as I’ve seen, and there are tons that I would love to talk about, but the top of my list is — I think about this scene a few times a year — when Shia LaBeouf recites the Book of Isaiah, Chapter 6. It is such a pure distillation of brotherhood and bravery and vulnerability in the most harrowing of times. I get chills just thinking about it.
What memories do you have from filming that scene pop into your head? Something that I think about a lot is, despite the fact that you’ve got movie stars like Brad Pitt and Jon Bernthal giving it their all, Shia kind of shows up and blows them off the screen. That’s what I think about. What do you think about when I bring up that scene?
Ayer:
Honestly, it’s tough. We did so much rehearsal and so much work, and those guys bonded so closely, and there’s such a powerful energy, a powerful human energy and connection. To me, it was real. It was like experiencing that, and knowing their fate, knowing where they were going to end up ultimately in the story, and how. And the film was always about the idea of you doing your duty no matter what, even if it comes at the ultimate personal sacrifice. Because without that kind of sacrifice, the world would be a lot worse place than it is. And so it’s something very bittersweet when you see that amazing performance crystallized. It’s a heavy thing. It was very heavy, but it was also very beautiful, and that moment has actually become kind of a touchstone in the U.S. military, and people really harken back to that and have found a lot of inspiration from that sense of selflessness that it represents.
BroBible:
I’m sure you’ve been asked this before, so I’m sorry if it’s a bit lame. Is “Best job we ever had,” is that an actual thing that soldiers said? Or is that something that you guys made up?
Ayer:
It’s something we did for the movie, and then it just caught on.
BroBible:
Tell me about the eureka moment of having Brad Pitt chime in being like, “I know that exact verse.” It is such a masterstroke of writing that ties in the bond of the characters, but also the wiseness of Brad Pitt, where you’re like, ‘*That’s* why he leads them.’
Ayer:
I wrote the script. It came from a lot of research and a lot of understanding. I read a lot of unit diaries. I read a lot of individual diaries, talked to a lot of veterans, and looked for the throughlines. Brad’s character is interesting because the war has changed him so much. He knows he can never go home. His strength and his role of being the father of this family, and keeping this family together and alive, even at his own demise. And there is a sense, I think, of relief in that character, knowing that his trials are going to be over.
BroBible:
And Shia plays it so well. Shia’s reaction made me feel like he was genuinely hearing that for the first time. His shock and he’s like, “Man, you’re something else.” David, that is one of my favorite scenes of all time. I really do mean that.
Ayer:
Thank you.
BroBible:
I know that these films aren’t shot in sequential order, but I’m curious… is this a Sony film?
Ayer:
FURY? Yeah, Sony distributed it.
BroBible
Right, so,m I imagine in their minds they’re like, “Oh, we’ve got Brad Pitt in a World War II movie — this will be awesome!” And then the first scene is Brad Pitt stabbing a guy in the f—— eyeball. Do remember sending them the dallies of that and what the response to that was when you were like, ‘By the way, here’s how it starts!’
Ayer:
They were great collaborators, and they knew the movie I was making. They came to set to visit, and they were actually really wonderful. Everybody knew what we were making and had kind of a common compass point to move towards.
BroBible:
Last one here on FURY. What moment, other than the one that we touched on before — it could be something you filmed, it could be in pre or post-production — where the genuine bond that those four or five men made really just washed over you?
Ayer:
It was the first day. The first day we shot was a scene of them driving into the division area of that giant set in the beginning of the film, and watching them in the tank. And then we filmed the scene at the base camp and meeting Norman and everything. And I’m looking around, and I don’t know how many extras we had, how many background players we had. It was a lot, and everything was period-realistic. Everything was absolutely correct to the time. And it was all-encompassing and immersive in ankle-deep mud. And I’m looking around, and they just felt like they grew out of that mud and were just an integral part of that world. They felt so connected, and they didn’t have to say a word, and you could feel it. And that’s when I knew the movie was going to work and be special.
When he realized Training Day would become iconic
BroBible:
I can’t believe it’s going to be 10 years since that film in a few months. I’m sorry to remind you.
Ayer:
Yeah, I don’t ever look at my watch.
BroBible:
I love to ask this of folks who are involved in something genuinely great. You, of course, wrote Training Day. I was born in 1993, so for the entirety of my movie-conscious life, Training Day has been iconic. It is a fabric of American pop culture in multiple ways. Do you have a specific moment where it occurred to you — maybe it was the first time you saw Denzel yell, “King Kong ain’t got s— on me!”, or it could be when Denzel won the award — when did it hit you when you were like, “Did I just make a generational movie here?”
Ayer:
I think it was like when Denzel won the Academy Award. That was a pretty wild moment, but it’s there was a sense of magic happening when we made it. Um, that no one had gone into the LA streets like that. No one had brought a film crew into that world, into the truth of it, into those spaces. And Antoine’s, you know, steady understanding and love and respect of those characters, and Mauro’s photography, you could see it in the dailies. You could see something magic is happening, and you know, you make movies, and you really never know how they’re going to come together. It’s always alchemical. You never know, and it’s just the way it appealed to everybody, not just street dudes, but everybody. I don’t even know how you beat that. It’s my best work, my best script. And it came from such a place of struggle and truth in me.
BroBible:
I read that thing that you posted back in 2021 about where you came from and where that film came from — “putting your pain on the page” felt like such a just a little slice of brilliance. And when I think about that film, I can totally see that.
Ayer:
It’s like grabbing an electric cable: you know it’s gonna hurt, but you’ve got to hold on to it. You’ve got to take the shock and then articulate that into words. That one took a minute to write, and I never thought it would get made. And I kept hearing, you know, “Oh, you don’t know anything about cops. That’s not how cops are,” and no one was really making cop movies at the time. And it just went against everything everybody knew in the business at that moment, yet somehow transcended.
Suicide Squad and the “injustice” he suffered at the hands of DC and Warner Bros.
BroBible:
Journalists who ask things just to make headlines kind of make me sick, and you recently tweeted that you are done with DC. So I want to remain respectful of you. If you don’t want to go down that road, totally fine with me. I’ve got tons of End of Watch stuff here to ask too. But I hope I have some nuanced things that I would like to hit.
Ayer:
Hit me.
BroBible:
What do you think the powers that be misunderstood either about your film or the Suicide Squad at large? I personally think the biggest issue was the studio not understanding the audience’s relationship to these characters. And I think that that issue is epitomized in the dichotomy between what your first trailer was and what the film wound up being. What do you think they missed the most?
Ayer:
It wasn’t a matter of missing or not understanding what it was. It was not trusting what I made to be commercially viable.
BroBible:
Because they panicked. Marvel freaked them out, and they lost their s—.
Ayer:
I mean, that’s definitely one way of putting it.
To change the DNA, to try and turn a drama into a comedy — yeah, there’s gonna be a little blood on the floor when you do it. My issue with it is they grabbed me and used me as a bullet shield, and no one has ever stepped up to acknowledge that or say it was wrong.
And a lot of the problematic issues with the film they released are endemic to their cut. If you cut out the redeeming part of the story and only leave things that, in the absence of context, appear problematic, and then let the international press attack the filmmaker every time you release new IP in the space, even almost feeling like a point of marketing, that’s an abuse of power. And it hurt and wounded me.
I discovered that by being silent, by being the silent victim, I was only being re-injured because it kept coming up again and coming up again. And it gave people this idea of who I am that couldn’t be further from the truth, and I’m still kind of paying for it today. For me, it’s just a basic injustice, and it keeps going. And I just want to move on.
BroBible:
That’s why I hate to broach it, but I feel if approached with a sense of nuance, it’s worth talking about. I want to say I read the open letter that you posted in 2021. I listened to you talk to Jon Bernthal about the whole thing. I’ve seen your tweets throughout the years. The grace with which you had handled this is rare. I want any movie fan out there to be aware that how you’ve gone about this is top-class, A-plus, and it has made me root for you harder than ever before.
Ayer:
Right on. And that’s the thing, it didn’t come from malice. It just came from fear, and everyone’s doing their best and making things up as they go in this business, and everyone’s making the best choices they can at that time. And for me, just a little bit of love and acknowledgment that maybe it wasn’t the right move would go a long way.
BroBible:
It’s taken a long time, but I think it’s coming. David, your new film, The Beekeeper, hits theaters on January 12th. For any man or woman who likes to see Jason Statham kick a–, which I’m sure there are a lot of you out there, this is for you.
Ayer:
Please go see it in theaters. This thing was made for theaters. It’s like two hours of escape. The world isn’t the greatest place right now, but if you want to forget about it and like actually have fun and enjoy a movie and remember the magic that movies inspire in us, go, please go see THE BEEKEEPER.
BroBible:
David, thank you for your time, and congrats on an awesome career, sir.
Ayer:
Appreciate it. Thank you. Cheers. Thank you.